New version of Design, Bad decisions to make.

Freebo

06.10.2019 14:44:39Link to post

This forced "new design" is horrible - It's not possible to make a choice again after switching to the 1999 version of the design (the blue one). After changing to blue, the browser remembers only this poor version. Unless you clear browser's memory - which is not a thing 90% of random guests would ever do. They gonna stick with poor version forever.

Besides - why push so hard even on PCs version which is good only for 15 years old smartphones when nowadays original design of CryMP.Net displays perfectly and fits all screens easily because original version was already designed for 1024 pix wide screens (which displays even on smartphones with resolution under 1280 x 720 - just scales the image down).

It's almost 2020 - Nowadays original version works on literally any 50$ smartphone with ease. Is readable there and nothing is being cut out, no matter what screen orientation you use. Horizontal or Vertical.

What's the point of simplified design and making access to information even harder for everybody? No matter if they want it or not? Without giving them a choice. Where is the logic? Is it about colors or what ? Didn't get an answer for the question that long ago. Maybe now?

If there is a need for some people to use poor version - why just not put "the choice option" directly under: https://crymp.net a "welcome page" - which would be the page same for all, no matter the device - but where anybody would be able to choose between two buttons: "Full Version" VS "Light Version" (for old, retarded 15 years old devices and people who just don't care about anything) - every time he enters www.CryMP.Net. It would be simple and fair for all users. The simple choice solution.

The example: because the mobile version was forced for years now on android - I was never able to watch the original website on my mobile devices, or show this full version to somebody on his phone - even though there should be a choice also on those devices (to go back to full version).

Even though I was myself placing links to original, full version in the code - those links were always removed. Is this a Facebook politics or what ? Forcing the horrible version without a chance to make choice by users or no chance to return to the original one, which works perfect on any screen over 1024 px and provides a lot of info.

Forcing degraded version just because somebody prefers FB simplicity (which was always a failure and mess of FB) and loves to experience hard to read interface isn't the way for any progress. It's the opposite. Especially when somebody enters the website for the first time and can't read the page. Some are going to find it to hard to operate and leave.

Again - If really that simple version has to exist - why not make two buttons on Welcome: "Full Version" / "Mobile Version" or something like that. I've been saying that for years because I knew my full responsible original version (which would be hated anyway probably) was in production - If we could place choice buttons everybody would be happy, depending what they want to see today, what they want the other day. "CryMP.Net" or "CryMP.Net/m/";

What's the problem with that ? Easiest solution if somebody really needs that "poor" blue version. Personally I don't know who wants it - but if there are people who like the text version of websites like we had in 90's - making Choice button would satisfy them also.

Especially when both versions CryMP.Net/ and CryMP.Net/m/ can work independently and anybody can use what he wants. Any of those version can be developed independently also - depending on preferences of users and designer. Anybodu entering the website wouldn't have to make permanent decision - but would be able to enter the version depending on his mood, device or info he is seeking for or purposes. Choice button should wor also on mobile devices the same way. If this simplified version is even needed. I don't think so myself - but I'd give this option for those who have another opinion.

Two choice buttons at the start at least. Something to consider to make it fair for everybody.


Zi;

Every man is the architect of his own fortune.
06.10.2019 15:14:05Link to post

It's not forced, you have to click "Yes" when asked "Would you like to try new design?" first and then there is link "back to old design" on bottom of page anyway. It's not even degraded version, there is everything that is on old webpage too.

And yeah, it's 2020 soon, almost all people according to Google Analytics already have at least 1440x900 anyway and as for smartphones, old webpage is just really pain for data plans and CPU to render it.

And as for second reason, it's much easier to maintain one thing than two separate things when it comes to new functionality.


Zi;

Every man is the architect of his own fortune.
06.10.2019 15:43:16Link to post

And lastly, if you find it bad, it's open to suggestions. I am improving it even now, when I see something looks bad or missing.


Freebo

06.10.2019 23:49:51Link to post

Zi: It's not forced, you have to click "Yes" when asked "Would you like to try new design?" first and then there is link "back to old design" on bottom of page anyway.


1) Link "go back" doesn't wor in all browsers and as soon you're back - and click "old" menu - you're being moved to "/m/" version but this problem can be experienced only in FireFox - so let's leave this "not working link"

2) Link "go back" should be visible - not just at the bottom where nobody ever looks. Should be at the top - especially during testing period. Otherwise looks like you're not giving a choice but are trying to convince users to forget about finished version and stick with unfinished, light version

3) Lack of choice what version you want to use on mobiles is a problem. Right now there is NO WAY to see server list with pictures, players on server and so on. Which is totally trashing all the effeort that was put into making it possible to see pictures or players on-line - Sure you can see players after clicking server but you still can't see picture. The original version has everything perfectly set in that matter. Why destroy it. There is no sense. But sabotaging good things which work fine is not a new thing.


Zi: And yeah, it's 2020 soon, almost all people according to Google Analytics already have at least 1440x900 anyway and as for smartphones, old webpage is just really pain for data plans and CPU to render it.


What the hell are you talking about ? The PAIN ? You're saying that that CPU of smartphones can't render original, well-prepared server list on smartphones ? Are you kidding?
What smartphones are so weak ? 10 years old ? Yeah I agree 10 years old are having problems with ANY current website. Who is using them? Gamers? Or just people who don't care about games and are checking the news on smartphone?

And what data plans are so weak they can't download a few MB of data every day ? Besides was CryMP.Net created for PC Game Players or Smartphone users who use ONLY smartphone to check if somebody is playing Crysis ? Yo mean like every user is checking the list 100 times every day ? and when he see players on his smatphone he comes back home, approaches the desk - he turns on his PC and start playing? Is this how it work for 90% of users? So a bit lighter website is a "must"?

Or maybe you're just thinking about yourself and 2-3 other people max - and about your experiences - so all the change is just for you. That you are that one whos CPU in a smartphone is weak (which I think is actually faster than mine now) - and that it's you who want to check the list 100 times a day on smartphone and you care about Your "data plan" ? Not data plans in general. For personal reasons, you DOWNGRADE the whole website?

If so - IT's OK - but you should give permanent option to switch between versions. You would always use "new" one - which is enough for you or your "data plan". And people who want to see full server list - the way it was designed for CryMP.Net on their smartphones - would be able to use it.

"data plan" in 2020 or CPU in smartphone or resolution is not an excuse at all for making the website so simple - and create one simplified version without a choice for users. Because the network is for Gamers first and smartphones are just an extra option. Not the main one - like you are proposing because of your personal needs.

There should be always possible to see whole page on PC and on smartphones. If you really want that simplified version in 2020 when anybody can have 10 GB of data a month for less than 5 euro or doesn't have to check server list at all on a smartphone in case he has below 0.5GB a month to use. Checking that on smarphone is not a "must" to play the game or to use the website in general. Why is it affecting the whole design though ?

Besides soon 10 GB will be almost free to use - so making the website more simple for the future doesn't make any sense. 10 years ago I would agree at some points. Not today.

But still if you really, REALLY want to have this simple version - again - Why not make permanent switch at the top of website "Main version/ Mobile version". There are many people who want to see full version on PC and on smarphones.

And your argument that keeping both versions is a problem makes no sense at all. You don't have to touch the original version at all in the future if you don't like it. Since both versions are working with the same core - why would you even care about the design of original version? You're creating different classes, different styles - and that's all... You can leave old one under switch button and focus on new to do anything you want there (just keeping it consistent with the core) - So new will be used by those who prefer that simple one - and old can be the way it is now - for those who like unchaged version.

I don't get what's your point here. You can just forget about the old one and always watch only "new" one if you are so into that light version.

There should be always a choice - especially in situations when "new" versions are not more advanced but degraded in comparison to old ones. Otherwise, it's not progressing at all but regressing at its best. Especially in 2020 when the "old" website is not a problem for ANY possible mobile device.

Permanent Switch as the compromise.


Zi;

Every man is the architect of his own fortune.
07.10.2019 00:16:11Link to post

You know what, let users speak for themselves, so far no complaints.

1. You talk about "back to old design" being on bottom, you know what? "Would you like to try new design?" is also at bottom, apparently if users find that one, they are gona find "back to old design" too. And design switch being on bottom page is a normal thing if you look any other website with multiple versions for accessibility. It's always in footer.
2. 10GB will be almost free to use - yeah, according that most of users are from eastern Europe, that sounds totally real
3. Old version on phone was unusable without zooming-in
4. Most of new users are relatively young, old design looks old to them
5. In old design, it was unclear where to click to download client, only 3% of all unique visitors over 3 years made it to /dlland.php page
6. This version has full working Server list, Messaging, Forum, Help, only thing missing and soon to be added it Profile editing
7. There is much less visual spam in this version, it's clear how to navigate
8. Really, let users decide, they are those who use it and know their best after all

Edit: as to why would I bother to touch old version? I already told why, because if I want to add new functionality, like for example whole new statistics system, now I have to do it twice. And I fixed those design switching links already, so your argument about not having a choice just makes no sense. You didn't even give new version a try and only see negatives and zero positives. I fixed some parts of it's design even today, like forum and posts.


Freebo

07.10.2019 20:36:08Link to post

This is the final answer about design problem. Then I'm done.


You know what, let users speak for themselves, so far no complaints.


Really? In dictatorships you won't ever get complains and you know that - you're lying to yourself that you really care about others - just as you lied that you don't respect insults - at the same time you were supporting insulting posts and insulting players. Just hackers and cheaters were your only enemies.

So you wouldn't care what people say about version - and when they say - "no please, please don't change" - you will change anyway saying that it's the only way because of this, because of that.

Obviously, you will change anyway - as it always was. Doing things without consulting anybody. So stop that good uncle Zi BS. Users are not that dumb to dismiss that. The problem is they won't speak out because of many reasons. One of them is ignorance and lack of motivation.


1. You talk about "back to old design" being on bottom, you know what? "Would you like to try new design?" is also at bottom, apparently if users find that one, they are gona find "back to old design" too. And design switch being on bottom page is a normal thing if you look any other website with multiple versions for accessibility. It's always in footer.



You're comparing "would you like to a try" which was very visible overlayed thing to a simple link on left ? Well ok. Looks like you're fooling yourself that this is the same. Doesn't matter though.

I was talking about different things. Permanent switch links for the future.
But you were planning to force new anyway (I knew for months about it - I knew it's coming) - So your "testing" tric is just for fun - you're just curious if people maybe say "no" but you also know that nobody really cares so much to start a discussion about website - mostely becuase they come and go - so you will push it no matter what. And this was my point.


2. 10GB will be almost free to use - yeah, according that most of users are from eastern Europe, that sounds totally real


Sure you know the future of price of internet in easter Europe. Of course it will be almost for free soon the same as 5G will be everywhere and 1000 times cheaper than modem connection was in 90's - and don't think it's a present from Santa Claus. I told you why things are being given for free and making money on them is not that important. You see - it's not only the money you pay for services. But you ignore that - so forget about this subject and keep dreaming fair business fantasy.

Anyway you can be sure 10GB won't be a problem for anybody, anywhere soon. Permament access to internet via smarphones will be a default soon, and limits will be gone. Just wait 2-3 years.
But it doesn't matter.


3. Old version on phone was unusable without zooming-in



Yes some parts of it maybe were harder to see (look I'm using Crysis1.com on 6 inch screen and It's usable perfectly - just a bit small in vertical position), So functions were still readable and clickable just smaller.

BTW I would prepare more proper version of old version of CryMP.Net during this summer - but for during
last months I couldn't even watch this website on smartphones - couldn't tell what needs to be adjusted fix. Couldn't even test it because I didn't wan to mess with forcing simple version back and forth - for android all the time. So I need to take your word on "old version on phone was unusable without zoming" - Besides I never said this HAS to be the only version - What I was saying it's good enough version and if somebody wants 100% smarphone version he would be able to switch.

But it was you who has said - there will be no switch - just one version for smatphones and who cares about PC version anymore, right ?
But it doesn't matter.


4. Most of new users are relatively young, old design looks old to them


Load of BS here again. Looking "Old" is a joke. Your version doesn't look more new. It just looks "for smatphones only" and facebook-like in terms of simplicity. Do you think FB or YT are asking users which version they like.

I remember when YT was changing 6 years ago and custom graphics and layouts were disabled - everybody was against that. Thousands of people were signing the petition. And what happened ? YT forced new crappy version anyway. But you know what happened next ? Everybody got used to that - so now nobody is complaing. Pure psychology on enslaved community.

This is exactly what you're doing, and obviously soon nobody will complain. Everybody will be happy and thanful. People can get use to anything, especially when they have no choice. So stop playing a good uncle here. You're forcing your version anyway. So just admit that to yourself.
But it doesn't matter.



5. In old design, it was unclear where to click to download client, only 3% of all unique visitors over 3 years made it to /dlland.php page



Wait. So because of lack of "in the face" download button you needed to change whole website - instead of just changing Welcome page ? You could just put new START page with download button for both old and new versions and no problem -
Besides, CryMP.Net website is not like only for downloading - it's
about the network with direct instructions how to play and how to install the client - so I don't know if "download client before entering website" is an excuse.

But it doesn't matter anyway.


6. This version has full working Server list, Messaging, Forum, Help, only thing missing and soon to be added it Profile editing



I know that. This is why you will force it soon, you've already made it the "current" version in your mind - I know you very well in that matter - no meaning what people say or think (because most of them won't say what they think) - you would force new version ANYWAY. I'm 100% sure of that. This is why I was talking about leaving at least the choice for users who care about the old - full one.


7. There is much less visual spam in this version, it's clear how to navigate


Load of BS again. Really. Visual spam ? easier to navigete ? It's not easier at all - maybe for a programmer. I was making websites since 1998 and I remember how websites were looking that time. It was just text and tables, one icon and two pictures to make it look nicer - then it became more complexed and nice to watch, Flash was new but badly optimized - so then it went away and again everything was well optimized but nice looking - first smartphones made it look dumb and simple again (I know directly from my job works - websites started to look simple and much worse than 10 year ago) - but still design was something that matters - and guess what, 21 year later - after 1998 you are degrading it again to less "visual spam" as you call it - which soon will become 1998 version probably.

Soon it will be just text on white - just like your "Tvare" website was in 2014. And nobody will complain - because it will be "new" and as soon people get use to that - the only version in their minds. Always works like that. Otherwise nobody would use FB.

Old design of CryMP.Net is optimized pretty well for todays PCs. But anyway.
It doesn't matter.


8. Really, let users decide, they are those who use it and know their best after all


Load of BS again. You won't let users decide. You will bring new version and design ANYWAY. I know you. It's just a trick as always - because you've already started to work deeply on new version, changes in the core towards it, already promoted it probably somewhere as NEW version which is coming no matter what people think or say.

So stop selling propaganda that it's for users. It's just because of your point of view on things not for young users, cheap phones and eastern Europe. Just admit that and at lieast this will be fair.

I just wanted to leave option for the old version since it was well styled and prepared for 2020 not for 1998. But it's ok. We won't agree on the final solution. At least I wanted to be fair and keep both. You're against that. Cool.

Don't tell me I didn't give a chance the new design. I never said that. I just said it shouldn't be the only version. And that choice should always be there. Not just during alleged "testing" period.

And YES - I know that you have to do twice some things for two websites/versions - It's probably very time-consuming especially when you do changes for a few days in a row only once every 1 year - so now you would need extra 15 minutes every year to apply changes of things visible on old version also to old version. Too much work right? Have you asked how much work took styling the old version month after month, after adding new functions, styling again - which is being dumped to trash soon? much more than 15 minutes a year. So if you talk about time that needs to be put in something as an excuse for dropping original version - try to be fair.

But it doesn't matter.

Do what you want. Who cares what I say. From now on, new technology means websites with text only. And I can't do anything about that. Regression is the future.

I won't break the wall. Good luck.

I've got no time for debates anymore - debates where I always let you apply what you want and if I disagree on something, and you pretend you agree with me - l always feel that you're just faking that agreement - and I'm always right because - I see you going back to that subject and your type of options months and months later anyway. Like we were never talking about that before. Besides during that period you're probably talking behind the back again "Freebo is aganst but I will do it anyway, because it's good for humanity" and BS like that.
That's fine. Nothing new. Was always like that.

So why would I bother share any arguments and points of view. If you're stuck on something even if it's not a good idea, even if there are more people besides me against that - you don't care too much care after all.

Even though I agree with you about some points of new version - let's say 50% - You still want to force 100% of your idea and forget about original design forever. Fine.

But at least unlike you - I was proposing some compromise. That shows who you are.
So do what you want. I will not watch website switching to something that looks bad to me. I simply won't enter that so you need to keep eye on things from now on.

And YES most of people don't care about the look. Most of people is using FB - they don't even know that better look order and navigation can even exist. They got used to that as always.

I remmeber your first version of "tvare" website with server list in 2014. You didn't care it was text-simple. Most people don't care. So I guess this means "let's make it as ugly as possible" and hide extra options for smarphones.

I will have to work just on own stuff in this case. So don't bother asking me for any advice from now on. Because every time I gave the advice - few months later you did almost the opposite.

I'm tired of fighting with sabotage and destruction from inside. No wonder Youda had enough of that already 1,5 year ago. Sabotaging private events, sabotaging forum by rejecting about easy to apply automatic moderation mechanism against insults. It all made it worse. But that's ok. Who cares anyway.

So it's fine. I'm really tired of that "trying hard" for sure.

Do what you want. I'm out.

Won't be watching this website anymore. I don't want to watch it being destroyed visually and simplified.

I won't bother you also. It won't work anyway. You just don't care about any suggestions.

Relax and have a nice work. Luckily servers can be checked via other ways. Especially when it's on in-game list. I'm going to miss the old website though. But I'm the only one who can talk about that. So I'm leaving it the way it's going to become.

You're on your own with the design.

Bye


Zi;

Every man is the architect of his own fortune.
07.10.2019 21:10:45Link to post

Old design is still default choice and will be for at least next several months until I gather enough usage analytics and feedback.
Whether there will be default version switch or not, analytics will decide. So stop making drama from things that aren't happening any time soon.

If analytics show people don't really like new version, "Would you like to try new design?" will simply be removed for good and old design will be default for all PCs. And if analytics show people like it, old version will still be here, just not default. I don't plan on removing it.

Anyways, you are right, I will probably make that popup less significant and maybe I will put some little poll here where users can rate design 1 to 5 stars and decide if they like old or new more.

And yeah, thanks partner for bringing this public and giving this network bad reputation when people see mistrust between it's only two admins. That will surely help.


Zi;

Every man is the architect of his own fortune.
07.10.2019 21:39:37Link to post

Btw. And I added same looking popup to new design for users to decide to go back to old design or stay on new one.


TunSalat

09.10.2019 17:41:52Link to post

Change and improvement is good.
Instead of complaining/raging start contributing.
There is no need for a style/version selector. Almost zero websites has that, and those who do just didn't have courage to go for one direction and stick to it.
Just come with ideas for improvement for the modern site.
Just my opinion :)


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